Infantilised: How Our Culture Killed Adulthood (Keith Haywar)
I notice that in the business world many people associate being an adult with not having a sense of humor and joking around...I don't care, I'll remain a giggling creature at > 50...(probably less true for the UK, Switzerland/Germany more so...)
Definitely a difference between Germany/Switzerland and the UK insofar as British people are much more entertaining to be around and simply funnier. There is no concept like 'banter' in Germany and Switzerland which makes life quite miserable.
But note that there is a difference between having fun/being funny and being a manchild.
I would say that the problem with infantilisation is that it describes the trend for people to become childish without being funny and instead demanding to be taken serious in their childishness.
A few different approaches. While the stereotype German is lacking in humour, I am not sure it is a correct archetype. Despite having (roughly) similar languages, I find that Americans do not understand English humour; which is more like Jewish culture where Jews and the English can laugh at each other. Conversely American humour is over the top, lacking subtlety.
We must not take this too far. We are all unique human beings and our shared humanity beats prejudice.
Of course, this is all good natured banter and we definitely must not take it too far. But when it comes to the difference between American and British humour, I don't like American humour either and for the same reason: it lacks subtlety.
Indeed, it seems the americans struggle with the very concept of irony, which is why they neither understand British, not Jewish humour.
Klement, I usually like your blog, but with this "Infantilised" stuff you totally misunderstand the world and the younger generations.
So you do not like names from fantasy books? Like Joachim, the father of the Virgin Mary from an iron-age fantasy book? This is the oldest tradition we have, most of the people are named after characters from folk tales, myths, religious books what you could call "fantasy". I am named after John the Baptist, my sister after an old middle-eastern goddess, my older son got the name of a mythical Hungarian warrior, my younger son was named after the father of Attila the Hun, my wife is the exception, she bears a latinized Germanic name meaning glorious. My friend is named after a character in a fantasy theatrical play from 1830. I had three uncles, they were named after the first Hungarian king, who ascended to sainthood, one of the sons of Attila the Hun, and the third one got a name meaning "ruler" in the old Ottoman empire. This is literally our oldest tradition, if you check the origins of the names of your family, you will be surprised how many of them are named after "fantasy" characters. My grandmother was named after Helen of Troy originally, but in her adulthood she chose to be named after the wife of Abraham instead. This has been a norm for thousands of years, it is a bit of an exaggeration to blame GenZ for it.
The same with adults enjoying made-up stories. This has been the main source of entertainment since we learned how to speak at the dawn of humanity. Every generation indulged in this jut their myths changed a little bit. My grandmother was highly religious she always told stories about saints. My father was atheist, but he knew the stories of every semi-famous football player in Europe since the seventies. My mother knew the life story of every single actress from the golden age of Hollywood and frequently told how this or that actress fared. I do prefer Star Wars of Warhammer 40k, as I like these mythologies better, but it is a stretch to say that this is in any way different from the lore on saints or actors or football players.
The only problematic usage of mythologies I have ever seen if you deny them and want reality to work like your myths. If a generation wants to decide economic policies, who to support in a war, the regulation of inventions, or scientific research by taking their myths seriously and treating them as reality. Statistically speaking you are more likely to hold completely made-up myths as absolute truth than not. And that is problematic, our greatest civilisational errors were made using this method.
So please do not worry about the guy who enjoys Star Wars but realizes that it is not real, but a made-up story invented for his entertainment! Worry about the completely adult boomer, who takes completely made-up stories about Monsanto as the absolute truth and destroys everything around him because he can not recognize folk tales as not being factual! Which one do you think is more mature?
Thanks, János for your comments. I am fully aware of my name coming from a book of folk tales.
As I mentioned in my comment above to another reader, I don't have a problem with grown-ups behaving childishly or having fun with made-up stories.
What I have a problem with is people behaving childishly and wanting to be taken seriously. That is infantile.
I have a problem with people going into a professional office environment and meetings wearing Star Wars stickers and shorts and expecting to be taken seriously at work. I have a problem with people going to an airport and boarding a plane wearing what can only be called a pajama. I have a problem with people giving their children names of Disney characters and then sending them out into the real world where they will always be lacking respect despite their skills simply because their name is Kevin, Elsa, or even worse, Pocahontas (and yes, that happened), etc. It's like the boy named Sue (if you know the song). You are giving your children a disadvantage in life just so you can live out your infantile fantasies and whims.
Fine by me if you want to watch Lord of the Rings and learn Elvish for entertainment. But realise that there is a difference between your fantasy world and the real world. the moment that barrier breaks down, the world becomes infantilised and you cannot command respect anymore.
And yes, I know that naming your children after a Disney character vs. naming your children after a mythological character that is thousands of years old is not qualitatively different per se. But in reality, it is qualitatively different because of the way people will treat a child named Johann or János or John or a child named Kevin. I think there are even studies about how people get subliminally discriminated against because of their names or their clothing style but I would have to go on a hunt to find those.
Finally, and because you teased me about your childrens names and because both my parents are originally Hungarian: What are the names of your children, if I may know?
I did not know that you had Hungarian roots! Yes, they are called Botond and Bendegúz.
But names are tricky. I have a friend who married a Greek guy, they named their son Leonidas. The Hungarian relatives were outraged how could they give such a Hollywoodian name to the kid, but the father did not understand it. In Greece it is a regular name, used for centuries, derived from antiquity and a famous king wore it. But the other side of the family only heard it from the movie 300 and could not understand how they could choose a name from a movie. Yes, history was not their strongest subject in school. And even this self-contradiction is evident in your answer: Pocahontas is a name of an ancient historic figure, why is it not suitable for a baby? Just because Disney made a movie about her? But then the movie 300 would make a laughing stock out of all the men named Leonidas?
Okay, but have you ever seen anyone that took Star Wars or Lord of the rings as objective reality? Yes, it would be a problem if anyone would say with a straight face that they will fly their X-wing home after the meeting, but have you ever seen anyone like that? Did that barrier ever break down for anyone?
However, I can show you a horde of people that will maintain that Monsanto is suing farmers left and right for accidental cross-pollination on their fields. I would wager most of the population takes this as the objective reality. But that is as much a fantasy as Star wars, yet you have no problem with hundreds of millions totally immersed in a fantasy world. Why?
So I agree, it is dangerous if someone takes some folk tale as objective reality, but you will be hard pressed to find any among SW or Lotr fans, but will affect the majority of the population in other topics. So I feel it is a bit misguided to look for these people among SW fans.
Joachim, I really admire your work but have to say that you picked some pretty terrible examples with your example names that shows your ignorance more than anything. "Kevin" is a very common Irish/Anglo/American male personal name that comes from Irish Gaelic and long predates whatever Disney character you're thinking of. "Elsa" was a pretty common name in Scandinavia even before "Frozen" existed in the world and while it was fairly rare in the US, I attended high school with a girl named Elsa in the 1990's in the US. Finally, obviously Pocahontas is a real historical person who existed long before Disney made any movie about her.
Infantilised: How Our Culture Killed Adulthood (Keith Haywar)
I notice that in the business world many people associate being an adult with not having a sense of humor and joking around...I don't care, I'll remain a giggling creature at > 50...(probably less true for the UK, Switzerland/Germany more so...)
Definitely a difference between Germany/Switzerland and the UK insofar as British people are much more entertaining to be around and simply funnier. There is no concept like 'banter' in Germany and Switzerland which makes life quite miserable.
But note that there is a difference between having fun/being funny and being a manchild.
I would say that the problem with infantilisation is that it describes the trend for people to become childish without being funny and instead demanding to be taken serious in their childishness.
A few different approaches. While the stereotype German is lacking in humour, I am not sure it is a correct archetype. Despite having (roughly) similar languages, I find that Americans do not understand English humour; which is more like Jewish culture where Jews and the English can laugh at each other. Conversely American humour is over the top, lacking subtlety.
We must not take this too far. We are all unique human beings and our shared humanity beats prejudice.
Of course, this is all good natured banter and we definitely must not take it too far. But when it comes to the difference between American and British humour, I don't like American humour either and for the same reason: it lacks subtlety.
Indeed, it seems the americans struggle with the very concept of irony, which is why they neither understand British, not Jewish humour.
Klement, I usually like your blog, but with this "Infantilised" stuff you totally misunderstand the world and the younger generations.
So you do not like names from fantasy books? Like Joachim, the father of the Virgin Mary from an iron-age fantasy book? This is the oldest tradition we have, most of the people are named after characters from folk tales, myths, religious books what you could call "fantasy". I am named after John the Baptist, my sister after an old middle-eastern goddess, my older son got the name of a mythical Hungarian warrior, my younger son was named after the father of Attila the Hun, my wife is the exception, she bears a latinized Germanic name meaning glorious. My friend is named after a character in a fantasy theatrical play from 1830. I had three uncles, they were named after the first Hungarian king, who ascended to sainthood, one of the sons of Attila the Hun, and the third one got a name meaning "ruler" in the old Ottoman empire. This is literally our oldest tradition, if you check the origins of the names of your family, you will be surprised how many of them are named after "fantasy" characters. My grandmother was named after Helen of Troy originally, but in her adulthood she chose to be named after the wife of Abraham instead. This has been a norm for thousands of years, it is a bit of an exaggeration to blame GenZ for it.
The same with adults enjoying made-up stories. This has been the main source of entertainment since we learned how to speak at the dawn of humanity. Every generation indulged in this jut their myths changed a little bit. My grandmother was highly religious she always told stories about saints. My father was atheist, but he knew the stories of every semi-famous football player in Europe since the seventies. My mother knew the life story of every single actress from the golden age of Hollywood and frequently told how this or that actress fared. I do prefer Star Wars of Warhammer 40k, as I like these mythologies better, but it is a stretch to say that this is in any way different from the lore on saints or actors or football players.
The only problematic usage of mythologies I have ever seen if you deny them and want reality to work like your myths. If a generation wants to decide economic policies, who to support in a war, the regulation of inventions, or scientific research by taking their myths seriously and treating them as reality. Statistically speaking you are more likely to hold completely made-up myths as absolute truth than not. And that is problematic, our greatest civilisational errors were made using this method.
So please do not worry about the guy who enjoys Star Wars but realizes that it is not real, but a made-up story invented for his entertainment! Worry about the completely adult boomer, who takes completely made-up stories about Monsanto as the absolute truth and destroys everything around him because he can not recognize folk tales as not being factual! Which one do you think is more mature?
Thanks, János for your comments. I am fully aware of my name coming from a book of folk tales.
As I mentioned in my comment above to another reader, I don't have a problem with grown-ups behaving childishly or having fun with made-up stories.
What I have a problem with is people behaving childishly and wanting to be taken seriously. That is infantile.
I have a problem with people going into a professional office environment and meetings wearing Star Wars stickers and shorts and expecting to be taken seriously at work. I have a problem with people going to an airport and boarding a plane wearing what can only be called a pajama. I have a problem with people giving their children names of Disney characters and then sending them out into the real world where they will always be lacking respect despite their skills simply because their name is Kevin, Elsa, or even worse, Pocahontas (and yes, that happened), etc. It's like the boy named Sue (if you know the song). You are giving your children a disadvantage in life just so you can live out your infantile fantasies and whims.
Fine by me if you want to watch Lord of the Rings and learn Elvish for entertainment. But realise that there is a difference between your fantasy world and the real world. the moment that barrier breaks down, the world becomes infantilised and you cannot command respect anymore.
And yes, I know that naming your children after a Disney character vs. naming your children after a mythological character that is thousands of years old is not qualitatively different per se. But in reality, it is qualitatively different because of the way people will treat a child named Johann or János or John or a child named Kevin. I think there are even studies about how people get subliminally discriminated against because of their names or their clothing style but I would have to go on a hunt to find those.
Finally, and because you teased me about your childrens names and because both my parents are originally Hungarian: What are the names of your children, if I may know?
😊
I did not know that you had Hungarian roots! Yes, they are called Botond and Bendegúz.
But names are tricky. I have a friend who married a Greek guy, they named their son Leonidas. The Hungarian relatives were outraged how could they give such a Hollywoodian name to the kid, but the father did not understand it. In Greece it is a regular name, used for centuries, derived from antiquity and a famous king wore it. But the other side of the family only heard it from the movie 300 and could not understand how they could choose a name from a movie. Yes, history was not their strongest subject in school. And even this self-contradiction is evident in your answer: Pocahontas is a name of an ancient historic figure, why is it not suitable for a baby? Just because Disney made a movie about her? But then the movie 300 would make a laughing stock out of all the men named Leonidas?
Okay, but have you ever seen anyone that took Star Wars or Lord of the rings as objective reality? Yes, it would be a problem if anyone would say with a straight face that they will fly their X-wing home after the meeting, but have you ever seen anyone like that? Did that barrier ever break down for anyone?
However, I can show you a horde of people that will maintain that Monsanto is suing farmers left and right for accidental cross-pollination on their fields. I would wager most of the population takes this as the objective reality. But that is as much a fantasy as Star wars, yet you have no problem with hundreds of millions totally immersed in a fantasy world. Why?
So I agree, it is dangerous if someone takes some folk tale as objective reality, but you will be hard pressed to find any among SW or Lotr fans, but will affect the majority of the population in other topics. So I feel it is a bit misguided to look for these people among SW fans.
Joachim, I really admire your work but have to say that you picked some pretty terrible examples with your example names that shows your ignorance more than anything. "Kevin" is a very common Irish/Anglo/American male personal name that comes from Irish Gaelic and long predates whatever Disney character you're thinking of. "Elsa" was a pretty common name in Scandinavia even before "Frozen" existed in the world and while it was fairly rare in the US, I attended high school with a girl named Elsa in the 1990's in the US. Finally, obviously Pocahontas is a real historical person who existed long before Disney made any movie about her.